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	<title>Comments for James Tiptree, Jr. Literary Award Council</title>
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		<title>Comment on Alice Sola Kim, Beautiful White Bodies by Nancy Jane Moore</title>
		<link>http://tiptree.org/uncategorized/alice-sola-kim-beautiful-white-bodies#comment-244</link>
		<dc:creator>Nancy Jane Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 May 2011 00:26:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tiptree.org/?p=224#comment-244</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think the beauty is exoticized. I think it&#039;s an extreme version of the Western beauty ideal.

But then the word exotic when used with beauty almost always indicates someone who isn&#039;t white but is considered beautiful by white people. So I may be hearing something different in the word.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the beauty is exoticized. I think it&#8217;s an extreme version of the Western beauty ideal.</p>
<p>But then the word exotic when used with beauty almost always indicates someone who isn&#8217;t white but is considered beautiful by white people. So I may be hearing something different in the word.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alice Sola Kim, Beautiful White Bodies by Nancy Jane Moore</title>
		<link>http://tiptree.org/uncategorized/alice-sola-kim-beautiful-white-bodies#comment-243</link>
		<dc:creator>Nancy Jane Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 May 2011 00:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tiptree.org/?p=224#comment-243</guid>
		<description>Would you really be tempted, Maureen? At 27? I was certainly not part of the beautiful crowd when I was young, and while by the time I hit my 20s I had figured out I wasn&#039;t ugly, I also knew I&#039;d never meet the standards for beauty queen or fashion model or movie star no matter what I did. But I wouldn&#039;t have been willing to do something that risked my life -- and my humanity -- for beauty.

Jackie, your comments about passing through periods of prettiness without recognizing them hit home. Not long ago, I was talking with an old friend of mine -- a man -- and the subject came up. I said, &quot;I looked at some old pictures of myself from the 70s, and I was really cute.&quot; He said, &quot;I certainly thought so.&quot; But at the time, I didn&#039;t know it at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would you really be tempted, Maureen? At 27? I was certainly not part of the beautiful crowd when I was young, and while by the time I hit my 20s I had figured out I wasn&#8217;t ugly, I also knew I&#8217;d never meet the standards for beauty queen or fashion model or movie star no matter what I did. But I wouldn&#8217;t have been willing to do something that risked my life &#8212; and my humanity &#8212; for beauty.</p>
<p>Jackie, your comments about passing through periods of prettiness without recognizing them hit home. Not long ago, I was talking with an old friend of mine &#8212; a man &#8212; and the subject came up. I said, &#8220;I looked at some old pictures of myself from the 70s, and I was really cute.&#8221; He said, &#8220;I certainly thought so.&#8221; But at the time, I didn&#8217;t know it at all.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alice Sola Kim, Beautiful White Bodies by Nancy Jane Moore</title>
		<link>http://tiptree.org/uncategorized/alice-sola-kim-beautiful-white-bodies#comment-242</link>
		<dc:creator>Nancy Jane Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 May 2011 00:07:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tiptree.org/?p=224#comment-242</guid>
		<description>Karen, I think the race/beauty issue depends on when the story is set and the underlying issues of the society the story&#039;s about. I don&#039;t think you can set a story in the current or near future US and not deal in some way with race. If you don&#039;t mention it, if you ignore it, that&#039;s just another side of the coin. The US is a multiracial, multicultural society, and while race is biologically meaningless, the history and culture and -- god help me, I hate to use this word because it is so loaded but there&#039;s not a better one -- oppression associated with it are still relevant.

I don&#039;t think it necessarily has to be confrontational, and if you&#039;re writing in another time and place, it might not be an issue. But I suspect that even if you&#039;re writing from a non-white tradition, but setting the story in the current or near future US, you have to deal with that tension.

As for your struggles in your own work: I have the same problem. It&#039;s easy enough with major characters, because those get described. I don&#039;t think you have to hammer it home with the terminally clueless. But how do you make it clear that a society is multi-ethnic and multi-racial without giving everyone a label? I don&#039;t have good answers, but it&#039;s worth thinking about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karen, I think the race/beauty issue depends on when the story is set and the underlying issues of the society the story&#8217;s about. I don&#8217;t think you can set a story in the current or near future US and not deal in some way with race. If you don&#8217;t mention it, if you ignore it, that&#8217;s just another side of the coin. The US is a multiracial, multicultural society, and while race is biologically meaningless, the history and culture and &#8212; god help me, I hate to use this word because it is so loaded but there&#8217;s not a better one &#8212; oppression associated with it are still relevant.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it necessarily has to be confrontational, and if you&#8217;re writing in another time and place, it might not be an issue. But I suspect that even if you&#8217;re writing from a non-white tradition, but setting the story in the current or near future US, you have to deal with that tension.</p>
<p>As for your struggles in your own work: I have the same problem. It&#8217;s easy enough with major characters, because those get described. I don&#8217;t think you have to hammer it home with the terminally clueless. But how do you make it clear that a society is multi-ethnic and multi-racial without giving everyone a label? I don&#8217;t have good answers, but it&#8217;s worth thinking about.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alice Sola Kim, Beautiful White Bodies by Another Short Story Club &#171; Torque Control</title>
		<link>http://tiptree.org/uncategorized/alice-sola-kim-beautiful-white-bodies#comment-237</link>
		<dc:creator>Another Short Story Club &#171; Torque Control</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 May 2011 22:24:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tiptree.org/?p=224#comment-237</guid>
		<description>[...] by Caitlin R. Kiernan, Lifelode by Jo Walton, and are currently considering &#8220;Beautiful White Bodies&#8221; by Alice Sola [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] by Caitlin R. Kiernan, Lifelode by Jo Walton, and are currently considering &#8220;Beautiful White Bodies&#8221; by Alice Sola [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alice Sola Kim, Beautiful White Bodies by Jackie M.</title>
		<link>http://tiptree.org/uncategorized/alice-sola-kim-beautiful-white-bodies#comment-228</link>
		<dc:creator>Jackie M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2011 04:23:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tiptree.org/?p=224#comment-228</guid>
		<description>I loved this story. But the ending somehow didn&#039;t work for me. Justine&#039;s running away--but from what, exactly, of the many things she has to choose from? She&#039;s wishing Pearl well--but we all know Pearl will be dead in two weeks? I want, I don&#039;t know. More.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I loved this story. But the ending somehow didn&#8217;t work for me. Justine&#8217;s running away&#8211;but from what, exactly, of the many things she has to choose from? She&#8217;s wishing Pearl well&#8211;but we all know Pearl will be dead in two weeks? I want, I don&#8217;t know. More.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alice Sola Kim, Beautiful White Bodies by Jackie M.</title>
		<link>http://tiptree.org/uncategorized/alice-sola-kim-beautiful-white-bodies#comment-227</link>
		<dc:creator>Jackie M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2011 04:21:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tiptree.org/?p=224#comment-227</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s because Justine is older? So she KNOWS she is actually is beautiful in her own way, and has a list of things she wants to accomplish that have nothing to do with beauty.

Even though Justine describes Pearl as genuinely, objectively not beautiful, I still recognized my own experience here. And my experience was one passing through period of prettiness, but barely recognizing them at the time. I was desperately unhappy when I was at my &quot;cutest&quot; in college and high school--because everyone else was prettier, and that&#039;s all that seemed to matter back then.

The older I get, the more accepting I seem to be of my appearance. And the less important it seems to be to my goals and dreams. Back in high school, being ugly all my life was just such a frightening, no-way-out, no-future-forward prospect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s because Justine is older? So she KNOWS she is actually is beautiful in her own way, and has a list of things she wants to accomplish that have nothing to do with beauty.</p>
<p>Even though Justine describes Pearl as genuinely, objectively not beautiful, I still recognized my own experience here. And my experience was one passing through period of prettiness, but barely recognizing them at the time. I was desperately unhappy when I was at my &#8220;cutest&#8221; in college and high school&#8211;because everyone else was prettier, and that&#8217;s all that seemed to matter back then.</p>
<p>The older I get, the more accepting I seem to be of my appearance. And the less important it seems to be to my goals and dreams. Back in high school, being ugly all my life was just such a frightening, no-way-out, no-future-forward prospect.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alice Sola Kim, Beautiful White Bodies by Karen Fowler</title>
		<link>http://tiptree.org/uncategorized/alice-sola-kim-beautiful-white-bodies#comment-226</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen Fowler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2011 03:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tiptree.org/?p=224#comment-226</guid>
		<description>I see that Nancy has already suggested that it&#039;s impossible to write about beauty and not bring race into it.  But I&#039;m not sure.  Can&#039;t you write from within a non-white tradition about non-white beauty and not have it be -- confrontational?  Just have it be what it is?
   I am currently fretting, as always, about how to identify various characters in my novel.  If my protagonist meets a black person on the bus, and I say that it&#039;s a black person, then aren&#039;t I normalizing white people if I don&#039;t also identify them by race?  If I identify every character, white, black, Asian, Indian, etc, then aren&#039;t I&#039;m making race far too important as a designator of character?  I&#039;ve tried from time to time to make the identification clear with the surname or some more subtle thing than describing the skin color and then a certain percentage of readers just figure the character is white.  Even if the last name is Takahashi.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see that Nancy has already suggested that it&#8217;s impossible to write about beauty and not bring race into it.  But I&#8217;m not sure.  Can&#8217;t you write from within a non-white tradition about non-white beauty and not have it be &#8212; confrontational?  Just have it be what it is?<br />
   I am currently fretting, as always, about how to identify various characters in my novel.  If my protagonist meets a black person on the bus, and I say that it&#8217;s a black person, then aren&#8217;t I normalizing white people if I don&#8217;t also identify them by race?  If I identify every character, white, black, Asian, Indian, etc, then aren&#8217;t I&#8217;m making race far too important as a designator of character?  I&#8217;ve tried from time to time to make the identification clear with the surname or some more subtle thing than describing the skin color and then a certain percentage of readers just figure the character is white.  Even if the last name is Takahashi.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alice Sola Kim, Beautiful White Bodies by Karen Fowler</title>
		<link>http://tiptree.org/uncategorized/alice-sola-kim-beautiful-white-bodies#comment-225</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen Fowler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2011 03:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tiptree.org/?p=224#comment-225</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Jed, for the information on the uncanny valley.  I&#039;ve been using the concept in my novel so it&#039;s important to learn that I must be more tentative in my use of it.  In fact, I&#039;d read that chimpanzees also show evidence of this response and now I must track that back down and see how this was tested and etc.
    The comments on the racial aspects of beauty have me wondering -- is it possible to write about beauty and eliminate the racial aspect or is it just a matter of being aware that you&#039;re using a racially-tinged concept or not being aware of it.
    Maureen, I&#039;m not sure why Justine is not tempted.  My impression is that the disease is just not an option for Justine because of her age and she is always clear on this, so there is no point in even thinking about it.  There is also a phenomenon, or so I think, of reaching a certain age and realizing you are pretty enough.  Justine is described as a pretty woman and in point of fact there is no advantage to being incredibly beautiful.  And the possible disadvantages of scaring off potential sexual partners who will find you intimidating.  Pretty is better than beautiful unless you want a movie career.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Jed, for the information on the uncanny valley.  I&#8217;ve been using the concept in my novel so it&#8217;s important to learn that I must be more tentative in my use of it.  In fact, I&#8217;d read that chimpanzees also show evidence of this response and now I must track that back down and see how this was tested and etc.<br />
    The comments on the racial aspects of beauty have me wondering &#8212; is it possible to write about beauty and eliminate the racial aspect or is it just a matter of being aware that you&#8217;re using a racially-tinged concept or not being aware of it.<br />
    Maureen, I&#8217;m not sure why Justine is not tempted.  My impression is that the disease is just not an option for Justine because of her age and she is always clear on this, so there is no point in even thinking about it.  There is also a phenomenon, or so I think, of reaching a certain age and realizing you are pretty enough.  Justine is described as a pretty woman and in point of fact there is no advantage to being incredibly beautiful.  And the possible disadvantages of scaring off potential sexual partners who will find you intimidating.  Pretty is better than beautiful unless you want a movie career.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alice Sola Kim, Beautiful White Bodies by Jed Hartman</title>
		<link>http://tiptree.org/uncategorized/alice-sola-kim-beautiful-white-bodies#comment-222</link>
		<dc:creator>Jed Hartman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 May 2011 18:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tiptree.org/?p=224#comment-222</guid>
		<description>A bunch of good points here. Especially &quot;Beauty in particular is so racially tinged&quot;; I wouldn&#039;t have thought to put it that way, but now that you say it, yes, totally, and great point.

And that combines with various things others have said here to make me wonder about exoticization. Is the beauty in the story exoticized? Or is it an extension of a Western beauty ideal? Or both, or neither?

...Re teenagers: one aspect of this might be the line &quot;He was one who had cast off the stupidity of his teenage years.&quot; And another: &quot;You&#039;re, like, a sexy older woman.&quot; And the &quot;boomeranging&quot; thing in the third paragraph of the story. In my reading, there&#039;s a lot of age and coming-of-age and growing-into-one&#039;s-adult-self stuff going on in the story (and maybe even a sideways sort of nostalgia/longing for teenagerhood), mixed in with the beauty stuff (and plenty of other stuff, of course); I think those two aspects intertwine with each other interestingly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A bunch of good points here. Especially &#8220;Beauty in particular is so racially tinged&#8221;; I wouldn&#8217;t have thought to put it that way, but now that you say it, yes, totally, and great point.</p>
<p>And that combines with various things others have said here to make me wonder about exoticization. Is the beauty in the story exoticized? Or is it an extension of a Western beauty ideal? Or both, or neither?</p>
<p>&#8230;Re teenagers: one aspect of this might be the line &#8220;He was one who had cast off the stupidity of his teenage years.&#8221; And another: &#8220;You&#8217;re, like, a sexy older woman.&#8221; And the &#8220;boomeranging&#8221; thing in the third paragraph of the story. In my reading, there&#8217;s a lot of age and coming-of-age and growing-into-one&#8217;s-adult-self stuff going on in the story (and maybe even a sideways sort of nostalgia/longing for teenagerhood), mixed in with the beauty stuff (and plenty of other stuff, of course); I think those two aspects intertwine with each other interestingly.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alice Sola Kim, Beautiful White Bodies by Jed Hartman</title>
		<link>http://tiptree.org/uncategorized/alice-sola-kim-beautiful-white-bodies#comment-221</link>
		<dc:creator>Jed Hartman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 May 2011 18:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tiptree.org/?p=224#comment-221</guid>
		<description>Cool discussion!

I wanted to toss in a side note about the uncanny valley: there&#039;s a lot of disagreement about what exactly is meant by the phrase &quot;uncanny valley,&quot; and the little research that&#039;s been done so far is ambiguous about whether there actually is such a thing (under any definition). For details, see here:

http://www.kith.org/journals/jed/2010/03/11/12737.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cool discussion!</p>
<p>I wanted to toss in a side note about the uncanny valley: there&#8217;s a lot of disagreement about what exactly is meant by the phrase &#8220;uncanny valley,&#8221; and the little research that&#8217;s been done so far is ambiguous about whether there actually is such a thing (under any definition). For details, see here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.kith.org/journals/jed/2010/03/11/12737.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.kith.org/journals/jed/2010/03/11/12737.html</a></p>
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